Could we criticize critics???
The Boys Are Kind of Slow...
Ver mensaje de rayolOf course, I posted these Rioja articles earlier on WLDG (it helps if I don’t have to wait for someone to post them and do it myself) on WLDG. Just use the Search Engine and type in either ";Manuel Camblor/NYC"; or ";TN: Being There: Rioja";. You’ll get parts 3 and 4 right away.
Poor barthes, never knew what hit him...:-)
Best,
Manuel
Re: The Boys Are Kind of Slow...
Ver mensaje de rayol";never knew what hit him"; LOL !
will check wldg tomorrow. Past midnight here. flagging.
look forward to it with fresh eyes in the morning.
I’ve been neglecting Robin Garrs site somewhat. Must rectify.
hasta pronto
Ray
Greatness
Ver mensaje de WaltZalenskiHmmm. A ";Great Spanish Wine."; Of course there is no such universal definition. According to the personal definition of many, the number of great Spanish wines is zero. No doubt your criteria for greatness, Manuel, would differ from mine. For example, I surmise that you would place more emphasis on a producer’s past history. In contrast, for example, I would say that Mariano Garcia is producing great wines today even though none of his current projects has the esteemed history of Vega Sicilia. In what is perhaps an even more extreme example of historical disregard, I believe a one-vintage wonder - an aberrationally good wine from a historically mediocre producer - can qualify in my book as a ";great"; wine.
Apart from historical pedigree, there is no universal definition of what a great wine is even if one focusses solely on what is in the glass. What I find particularly evocative or pleasurable in a wine may make you fill your cheeks with pretend vomit. If there is the slightest hint of certain green elements in a wine, sometimes less than what others can detect, I rebel. You may well view that same wine mythopoetically.
While I reject the notion of a universal definition of a ";great"; wine, I do think different people can view wine objectively according to principles generally shared by most serious wine drinkers. I also think that Parker’s opinions about what is a very high-scoring wine probably align reasonably closely with the objective views of most such wine drinkers about what a well-made, correct wine should be. I should point out, however, that this may well be viewed as an unsettling assertion for Parker defenders. I might argue, for example, that many aspects of popular culture are as bad as they are because people tend to be quite similar in their basic, dumb, and vulgar interests and extremely different in their refined and noble interests. In other words, for ";culture"; to be ";popular"; it necessarily must be dumbed down. According to this theory, the world’s most popular wine is not likely to be very good. On the other side of the same coin, sophisticated winedrinkers may well be highly unlikely to agree on what they consider to be their few ";greatest"; wines.
Does this relate at all to the assertions of a Parker-hegemonized wine style? I’m not really sure it does. I think that the class of winedrinkers to whom I refer above (those who I suspect broadly agree with Parker about wines that are well made and correct) already have quite refined tastes, at least relatively speaking. To be sure, there are many unsophisticated wine consumers who do follow those ";self-talkers"; that you spoke about earlier, but I do not think that Parker’s ";authority"; comes from them. While groping for guidance, these people do not appear to distinguish between Parker, the Wine Spectator, or most anything else. [ Recently in this forum (see ";Reverse Intertextuality"; thread) I pointed out that Zachy’s, the big New York retailer, is even using one of my TNs for a shelf-talker. What better proof can there be that the source of a shelf-talker text does not matter to a certain strata of the public -- those poor, unfortunate, misguided souls! ]
Bottom line:
We can broadly agree on which wines are well made and correct.
We naturally will have differing preferences among that category of wine.
We should not be surprised if we do not agree on what is ";great.";
Chess
Ver mensaje de WaltZalenskiOh my God, Joan. Chess to me is a like a black hole consuming mass quantities of time, far more free time than I have. It has been more than 15 years since I played in a real tournament. When I last played postal chess, the internet did not exist. I probably have 150 chess books, but I am sure I have not read a new one for 10 years. But I still love the game for the same reason I always loved it - aesthetics.
Thankfully wine does not consume so much time.
Re: Greatness
Ver mensaje de WaltZalenskiInteresting...
Though I may have once agreed that Mariano García made great wines (I’ve been drinkingnot just Vega Sicilia, but Mauro since the ’80s), I cannot say that for what he is doing now, which seems to me overblown and, above all, grossly overwooded. In my humble opinion, the last remaining nice wine in his stable is Mauro Crianza. The rest are, at least to me, out of any running on account of their excesses.
I’m sorry I can’t share your belief in any kind of ";objectivity."; For in order to achieve ";objectivity,"; one must quit being a sentient being (a ";subject,"; if you will) and become an object. Just not possible. Impossible not to insert one’s self into every sensation, every thought. Human agency is a real bitch...
Of course I can think of ";greatness"; in terms of what’s in the glass, without a historical context. Alas, it’s always so much better when a great wine comes from a long line of great wines, as opposed to being a one-off. I know that, as Confucius had it, every great journey begins with a single step. But in some latter day cases one sees the first step being equated to the entire journey.
Everyday I think more and more in terms of ";great as compared to what?"; And you know that it’s not an object doing thecomparing, but a subject. Some other subject may be engaged in a similar comparative prject elsewhere. With luck, s/he and this humble non-object can agree on a point or two...
I just got back from a lovely evening of middle-aged Champagnes and Burgundies. Highlights were 1978 Tattainger ";Comtes de Champagne"; (which, frankly, smelled like Toro Albalá’s 1922 Solera ";Eléctrico"; montilla-Moriles with an extra dollop of flan) and a truly beautiful 1993 Drouhin Bonnes Mares. And a 2001 Château Coutet was a showstoper, though it’s not eleigible for ";Wine of the Night"; Honors until at least twenty years from now. And a 1972 Drouhin Beaune ";Clos des Mouches"; was also superlative, at first seeming rather old, but pulling itslef together and gaining youthfulness with air.
Tired. Must rest. Not an object...:-)
M.
Re: Lovely thread ...
Ver mensaje de WaltZalenskiI got up early this morning to work and instead here I am fully enjoying a superb example of civilized dialogue :-/ (I do have to work!). What I enjoyed most is seeing many of my own thoughts so beautifuly described ... at last!! ;-)), thanks Walt!. I have never refused to taste any type of wine (even the ones I do not like much, I re-taste again later on to see if my taste has changed in the meantime), and I am blessed with being able to enjoy very many types of wines! I like Bosconias (another thing we agree upon, definitely Bosconia more than Tondonia), and the superb Tondonia whites, but I like the great Priorats, and the later Mariano Garcia wonderful ";kids";, and the super newly arrived Beryna, Dominic, Paco Ferre and Serres wines ... and many of the big, dense, muscular, mediterranean wines that in the other part of verema are described as ";chapapote"; (in reality a despective term, since chapapote is a very bad thing, but it is a colourful term, I know no offense is meant, and I am certainly not a defender of the most ridiculously strict ";politically correct"; way of expressing ourselves anyway).
I actually find Parker’s taste agreeing with mine reasonably often (maybe 80%?), and also the Wine Spectator for that matter ... which means I know what I like and compare it with others, nor that I like what others tell me to like. I do have JoanF’s same position towards critics, but sometimes I find them useful, specially when I am in a new country, faced with rows and rows of wines I have no clue about. Having only a limited amount of time, money and only one liver, it is nice to have some guidance to buy wines rather than just pick them up at random. I prefer Veremite advice (specially of the people whose taste I know to agree with my own), but lacking this, Parker and WS have come handy at times, particularly so when I want to buy a non expensive wine ... and I must admit that I am not dissatisfied (of course, I do also buy unknown wines based on the advise of the store personel, or just because ... )
Most comments about Parker in the Spanish Verema side (and Penin, and WS), have been not so positive, but they were not offending either, and true, other critics as Robinson or Jonhson are better regarded, but so what? I think that the problem with Barrera is that he seems to be an extremely pasionated guy (with some people find positive, some other find negative), and that the detractors of Parker (and company) and of the ";chapapote"; wines usually are also knowledgeable people who write beautifully too, and Barrera might have find himself not well equiped to brilliantly oppose with calm and nice comments (I am not, either) ... this said, he really seemed to have a fixation with Manuel ... weird ...
And now to work, but it was a revealing threat!
Majesus
Re: Could we criticize critics???
Ver mensaje de WaltZalenskiYep, I know what you mean but don’t be so cruel with my poor English Walt ;-)) or I will also feel ";impotence"; ;-)))))))))))) When I’ve said fallacies I just was trying to say in a polite way… LIES…
By the way, what a nice thread, though!
Garr...
Ver mensaje de rayolWell, I divvy up my spare time between the WLDG, here (ENlgish and Spanish) and that fine old place where I do get some solace, Wine Therapy. I’ve been ponted to several other sites, but truth be told, they would happen for me only if the days sprouted about 80 more hours.
Josie is in Paris on a bonding trip with her mother. She says she’s bought me a catalog from an exhibition of the paintings of Roland Barthes that took place in the Pompidou a couple of years ago. I hear he was also a modest piano player.
M.